Miguel de Icaza's blog - Latest Comments in From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

team building — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:33:35 -0000

good thing that you can expect Microsoft to act in it's own interest here. Mono and open source have been so successful that it's now in Microsoft's best interest to make nice with everyone and give Mono and everyone else all the rights they could possibly want.which is good sign to deal.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

The Werewolf — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:06:20 -0000

While I'm *very* happy about this announcement, I can't quite be as enthusiastic as some here are.

Microsoft can't legally protect its API (and really, C# as a language wasn't protectable - languages, including computer languages, aren't copyrightable), so they had to rely on patents to do it.

It's good that the core architecture and any patents required to implement this has finally been resolved in favour of the open community. That I wholeheartedly applaud, but it would be SO much better if Microsoft *got* why Mono is actually very, very important and valuable to them, and why supporting it - if in no other than than to work with the Mono group to warn them of potential patent issues in a non-confrontational way (ie: not to block Mono, but to find ways to get around them), would actually make .Net more successful, not less.

One question though, does this mean that the 'must never have seen Microsoft source' no longer applies to the ECMA compliant components? I've worked on Microsoft's code and so can't contribute, which is very frustrating.

Actually, I'm also wondering how the MacOS version is managed. I'd really like to see a native UI version. I know they're working on it, but I thought the target was 2.4 for first release and it's still not here.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Shane Fagan — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:44:19 -0000

Its great to have the clarification, Banshee and F-Spot are very good programs that I use a lot. Its good that the patent uncertainty surrounding patents is lifted and we can develop without any fear. The legal guarantee makes me feel a lot safer. Thanks for information Miguel its great news.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Jesper Lund Stocholm — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 02:55:23 -0000

@ Concerned,

"It's clear that this is subject to the same terms as all the other Community Promises: namely, that any implementation that does not conform strictly to the ECMA standards is fair game to be sued. This is incompatible with free and open source software. It's not free or open source if you can't make arbitrary modifications and distribute them legally!"

Please note that the wording is more or less a standard way of phrasing it. IBM uses the same terms in their "
Interoperability Specifications Pledge" (ISP) at http://www-03.ibm.com/linux... .

They state:

"Therefore, IBM irrevocably covenants to you that it will not assert any Necessary Claims1 against you for your making, using, importing, selling, or offering for sale Covered Implementations"

and explain what "Covered Implementations" mean with:

""Covered Implementations" are those specific portions of a product (hardware, software, services or combinations thereof) that implement and comply with a Covered Specification and are included in a fully compliant implementation of that Covered Specification."

The IBM ISP covers, amongst others, the patents held by IBM covering OpenDocument Format (ODF).

So to you, the IBM patents (and ISP) covering ODF are incompatible with free and open source software?

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

JP — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:07:55 -0000

First off, I am not a massive fan of either .NET or RMS... I use .NET everyday at work and think it is a great platform. We are in the process of switching our first customers into production with Mono, and this is quite successful for the main parts.

That being said, I love the open source concept as well. I am a contributor in two projets, and think RMS is right on some points.

Now, I have quite some difficulty understanding his recent comments on C#. He tells us it is bad to program in C#. I could argue it is one of the most productive language there is, but that is another debate. The real question is : what should we use, then ?

If we are talking about Java, I do not see much difference :
- Sun's JDK has been closed source for quite long, just like MS CLR is
- There are open source implementations of Java (OpenJDK,...) : there is Mono for .NET
- Microsoft is "evil" (means "a private company", in RMS language) : Oracle bought Sun, and I do not think they are any less of a profit-driven company than MS
- The libraries of .NET are not covered by the open licence. Same thing for the new Garbage Collector in Java : Oracle is going to sell it, as far as I know.

Really, I am being honest : I do not see any difference. Maybe there is something I have not understood in the licences, and in this case, I would very much like to know...

As for the language other than C# : if not Java, which ? After five years of C#, my boss would have to threaten me with a knife to make me go back to C++. And no other language seems as rich as .NET, today... What other language today proposes innovations like Linq, F#, Parallel Linq ???

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

migueldeicaza — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:08:55 -0000

Well, as usual, if you are "quite worried" you might want to abandon the software industry at once, because there are plenty of other things patented more trivial than the trivial System.Data.

But we will likely add at least a raw API for Sqlite, and expose the Tds protocol raw as well for SQL server for those that are loosing sleep over it.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

migueldeicaza — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:42:32 -0000

You need to download the ZIP file with the XML document that contains the classes

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

migueldeicaza — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:41:53 -0000

The fact that you have not used them *yet* does not mean you will not use them.

The VFAT patent that everyone is talking about is from 1995 or soand it took 14 years for it to be used.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

aaa — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 09:52:15 -0000

In a way the MS one is even better, it doesn't limit its promise to just opensource folks as the red hat promise does.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Matěj Cepl — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 04:35:08 -0000

Yeah, and could you point me to the case when we litigate our own patents against anybody? (remember, RH protection is against third parties, MS protects against itself).

(and yes, mandatory disclaimer, I do work for Red Hat)

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

raster — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:44:28 -0000

I still have a doubt: the BCL. I downloaded the ECMA 334 and 335 standards and reviewed them, and I was able to found references to the BCL and some examples, but not a precise description of it, nor the methods, classes, etc that it must contain. The problem is that the agreement says that it doesn't apply to things merely referenced in the specification, as stated in the FAQ, so, unless the BCL source code is distributed under a free license, I'm not sure that it's covered with this agreement too.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, so I can be mistaken. Can you clarify this to me? Where can I find the full BCL description and the legal conditions to use it?

Thanks in advance.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Per-Olov Jernberg — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:53:06 -0000

Finally!

Just hope this means that finally c#/.net can get a better reputation in the gnu/fsf community.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Laurent GUERBY — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:30:57 -0000

The MS patent promise language is nearly identical to the one made by Red Hat:

http://www.redhat.com/legal...

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Luis Espinal — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:11:59 -0000

"Q: What if I don’t implement the entire specification? Will I still get the protections under the CP?
A: The CP applies only if the implementation conforms fully to required portions of the specification. Partial implementations are not covered."

It means what is says. An implementation needs to fully comply to the required portions of the specification. It needs to implement what is required in the specs - functionality, behavior, semantics. The later two (behavior and semantics) are the most important ones. That is, you cannot deviate from behavior and semantics that are deemed required by the specs.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

DrNet — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 06:48:39 -0000

While this is great news (I earn a substantial part of my living by writing code, that must be binary compatible between .NET and Mono), I am quite worried about System.Data - leaving it out of the CP does hurt. Time to create an alternative?

Best regards,

Eugen

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Martin — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:06:11 -0000

Important inquiry:
Is the Community Promise compatible with the GPL? I don't see that one can grant a recipient of e.g. Mono the right to modify it, which is part of two of the four freedoms.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

MikeD33 — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:14:31 -0000

Hi Miguel. As a long time user of Novell Software, I really dig what you've been doing. It bugs me when I run across blogs that blather (especially lately) on with negative sentaments about Novell (or you personally). Their arguments seem almost religious in nature (sorry if that bugs anyone religious), so it is impossible to argue a valid point.

It appears (at least to me) that Microsoft is slowly coming along about Open Source. As time progresses, I think that they'll come around - as the "older generation" moves on. The next generation should be more accepting, because open source won't be a new concept that is against what they've done for their whole lives.

Sorry if this sounds too fanboy-ish for some out there, but I'm very tired of all the bickering about companies (or licenses) not being opensource enough to be cool - or whatever. Its sooo high school. Or am I just old and getting cranky?

MikeD

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Joseph Smith — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:46:40 -0000

I think you are right. As much as i hate any kind of censorship i surely can understand the reaction of the moderator by trying to prevent too much flaming and trolling around here and getting to much off topic.

Be sure that as a long time C++ programmer myself (and still being but also using c# / boo / nemerle / mono, python, java, delphi, D, ...) i don't want to start a flame war. Every language out there has it's usage, it's advantages, disadvantages and it's prefered domain and so does C++. There is no single best language out there for every purpose and despite all rational considerations it will always be a matter of taste which language / framework a programmer uses for a specific task.

And for a lot of people here in the forum the mono framework and c# are their prefered development tools. So this is a great day for the world of free software. At the end it is all about having the choice.

I wish you the very best in developing your software in C++ or in any language you want to and all the others who want to develop their free open source software in C# with mono. It is sad that there is so much hatred, ignorance and fear in the free software world and no attempts to try to solve problems together but to be at war with one another since we all should be working towards a common goal.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Carlos — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:13:21 -0000

The promise *does* change a lot of things for most of the people, but as you said, it changes nothing for us, because you were pretty sure MS was never going to sue us. And of course doesn't change anything at all with people that don't use Mono because of the eternal fear of Microsoft, and there's actually nothing in this world that could make them change their mind.

If, say, an impl doesn't fit the promise, so it's just not *covered* by the promise, but it's not a *proof* you are going to be sued, nor you are in a infringement or property or the same.

Dude, as I have already said to other guys who like Python the best: if you like your language more, go out and do some actual work on that front, instead of giving us only Stop Energy.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Matěj Cepl — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:02:36 -0000

I can see your point, but that's exactly what I was talking about ... you rely (a lot, actually) on continuing turf wars inside of Microsoft. I accept your point that Microsoft is bigger mess than we can imagine, but what if ... just theoretically ... some bigwig in the company decides that screwing up some slightly bigger Mono developer could be profitable for the company (as they apparently decided screwing up Tom Tom was)? Do I really want to rely on that? Tools division might be nice, but will they actively resist Mr. Balmer (or some of his successor) in the matter which is not that important to them after all (what do they really care about SuSE or somebody like that?).

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

ed3dnet — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:01:15 -0000

As far as the standards are concerned, I was under the impression that they're up to date. Their compatibility with Microsoft's own stuff is not so good, but that's not part of the standard.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

sdf — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:51:30 -0000

I can sense a strong legal mind here with a solid grasp of all the legal principles involved here. Kudos, you really showed me what's what. I thought irrevocable meant that it couldn't be revoked. Turns out it actually means you can revoke it if you feel like it! Amazing, eh?

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

KeithCu — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:20:23 -0000

I was talking about the fact that tools division has not threatened Mono in any way thus far. See, you keep looking at MS as one entity, and having worked there, I can tell you this will not help you understand them.

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Shane Coyle — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:43:44 -0000

What about HP? Don't they also have some patent interests in these particular standards?

Re: From Microsoft: C# and CLI under the Community Promise - Miguel de Icaza

Anoooon — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:22:32 -0000

How far behind the mono stack implementation are the ECMA 334 and ECMA 335 standards? I know the ECMA are to be updated but how often does that happen and how current to MS's implementation do they stay?